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# Session Start: Wed Aug 24 00:00:00 2011
# Session Ident: #css
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# Session Close: Wed Aug 24 02:19:23 2011
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# Session Start: Wed Aug 24 02:19:23 2011
# Session Ident: #css
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# [18:01] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/24-css-irc
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# [18:01] <plinss> zakim, this will be style
# [18:01] <Zakim> ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
# [18:01] <plinss> rrsagent, make logs public
# [18:01] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, plinss
# [18:01] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
# [18:01] <Zakim> +??P0
# [18:02] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P0
# [18:02] <Zakim> +florian; got it
# [18:02] <Zakim> +plinss
# [18:03] * plinss zakim acting strange this morning...
# [18:03] <Zakim> +nimbu
# [18:04] <Zakim> +stearns
# [18:04] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:05] <Zakim> +plinss
# [18:05] <Zakim> -plinss
# [18:05] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
# [18:05] <Zakim> +hober
# [18:07] <nimbupani> paging TabAtkins
# [18:07] <Zakim> + +1.858.354.aaaa
# [18:07] <plinss> zakim, aaaa is me
# [18:07] <Zakim> +plinss; got it
# [18:07] * Joins: dsinger ([email protected])
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# [18:08] <Zakim> +dsinger
# [18:08] * dsinger zakim, mute dsinger
# [18:08] * Zakim dsinger should now be muted
# [18:08] * Joins: TabAtkins_ ([email protected])
# [18:08] * dsinger and the top of a stylin' mornin' to you all
# [18:08] <Zakim> + +2aabb
# [18:09] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:09] * Joins: vhardy ([email protected])
# [18:09] <nimbupani> i can do that.
# [18:09] * dsinger wow.
# [18:09] * Joins: sylvaing ([email protected])
# [18:09] <nimbupani> fantasai: sez she cant take minutes
# [18:09] * dsinger I think Elika is in a high-speed bathtub and can't take minutes
# [18:09] <nimbupani> hahhahahahaaa
# [18:09] <Zakim> +??P15
# [18:10] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
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# [18:10] <JohnJansen> zakim, microsoft has JohnJansen
# [18:10] <Zakim> +JohnJansen; got it
# [18:11] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
# [18:11] <Zakim> +SteveZ
# [18:11] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:11] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
# [18:11] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:12] <nimbupani> yes
# [18:12] <nimbupani> plinss: anyone else has anything to add to the agenda?
# [18:12] <nimbupani> plinss: bunch of publishing requests
# [18:12] <nimbupani> plinss: css3-texts and writing modes.
# [18:13] <nimbupani> SteveZ: John sent a note about writing modes
# [18:13] <nimbupani> florian: the wording is not strong enough about being an unresolved problem here and he put out an alternative wording
# [18:13] * Joins: Cathy ([email protected])
# [18:13] <nimbupani> fantasai: is that something I can fix and publish? or should I hold off?
# [18:13] <nimbupani> SteveZ; the wording was only two sentences. Cant speak for John
# [18:14] <Zakim> +alexmog
# [18:14] * nimbupani florian reads from the email
# [18:14] <nimbupani> fantasai: that is not actually possible. we can get close to itb ut there is a problem with characters like quotes, where default orientation needs to be upright if its supported.
# [18:14] <Zakim> -florian
# [18:15] * dsinger ow, too much traffic noise, not enough signal
# [18:15] <nimbupani> stevez: that is not how vertical tables work
# [18:15] <Zakim> +??P0
# [18:15] <Zakim> +TabAtkins_
# [18:15] <TabAtkins_> Excellent, now my phone works.
# [18:15] <florian> Zakim, I am ??P0
# [18:15] <Zakim> +florian; got it
# [18:15] <nimbupani> stevez: that is separate. you cant expect a vertical table to tell you what to do for the orientation
# [18:15] <Zakim> + +2aacc
# [18:16] <arno> Zakim, I am aacc
# [18:16] <Zakim> +arno; got it
# [18:16] <nimbupani> florian: we agree there is a difficult problem here, rather than saying we "may" try we should say we "will" try.
# [18:16] <nimbupani> florian: it is not guaranteed that we will successfully find a solution.
# [18:17] <vhardy> s/itb ut/it but
# [18:17] <nimbupani> stevez: JOhn publsihed a test case that shows that there is no uniform implementation across browsers, and none of the existing unicode properties would allow you to map to the upright characters. The point being there is no simple solution and cant say what the browsers do, and cant say do what unicode does.
# [18:17] <nimbupani> stevez: there is a separate effort to define a unicode property to define implementation, but thats separate.
# [18:18] <nimbupani> fantasai: we have a very long list of exceptions.
# [18:18] <nimbupani> fantasai: in some cases intentionally so, and we do not have a good answer yet.
# [18:19] <nimbupani> plinss: are we in agreement with John's sentiment here?
# [18:19] <nimbupani> plinss: anyone opposed to that.
# [18:19] <nimbupani> plinss: i take that as a consensus
# [18:20] <nimbupani> florian: i am not sure about how to resolve the issue, but i am with him on the concern on that.
# [18:20] <nimbupani> fantasai: i would like to take a quick look at florian's issue.
# [18:20] <nimbupani> fantasai: i have a patch for that I want to check with the rest of the people here before I check that in.
# [18:20] * Joins: oyvind ([email protected])
# [18:20] <nimbupani> florian: i have not been able to look at my mail last weekend
# [18:20] * Joins: bradk ([email protected])
# [18:20] <nimbupani> fantasai: i think its a good idea.
# [18:20] * Joins: szilles ([email protected])
# [18:21] <nimbupani> fantasai: i linked to it from my message requesting publication.
# [18:21] <florian> # [18:21] <nimbupani> florian: there are 2 types of values in text-combine-horizontal property.
# [18:22] <nimbupani> florian: i am suggesting we can split these into two properties. the vis effect of squeeze text in is likely to be the same across document
# [18:22] <nimbupani> florian: if you split them it would reduce repetition
# [18:22] <nimbupani> florian: I do not have a good name for that.
# [18:22] <nimbupani> florian: what do people think about the idea.
# [18:23] <nimbupani> szilles: i have not thought about it, what you are saying makes sense. I prefer in general binary switch for turning things off and on, and a different property for the variance
# [18:23] <nimbupani> florian: thats my idea as well
# [18:23] <nimbupani> plinss: do we have any suggestions on this?
# [18:23] <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
# [18:23] <nimbupani> florian: so we agree to split?
# [18:23] <arronei> zakim, microsoft.aa is me
# [18:23] <Zakim> +arronei; got it
# [18:23] <nimbupani> fantasai: i put text-combine-mode in my draft
# [18:23] <nimbupani> florian: its better than what I said
# [18:24] <nimbupani> plinss: are we happy to publish with that change
# [18:24] <nimbupani> szilles: yeah, it is still a draft
# [18:24] <nimbupani> szilles: i think the principle that florian is espousing is a good princile
# [18:24] <nimbupani> s/princile/principle
# [18:25] <nimbupani> RESOLVED publish writing mode working draft with updates mentioned
# [18:25] <nimbupani> florian: I am convinced the wording we now have is a good representation of the conclusion we reached at F2F. so that is solved as far as I am concerned.
# [18:25] <plinss> s/mode/mode and css3 text/
# [18:26] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [18:26] <nimbupani> plinss: when are we going to publish the first draft of Selectors 4. W3C decided to wait until namespaces is out. Should we wait until selectors 3 is a rec or decide to publish it now. Anyone has strong opinions on that?
# [18:26] <Zakim> +fantasai
# [18:26] <nimbupani> ???: with selectors 3 is it just held up by namespaces right now?
# [18:27] <TabAtkins_> s/???/arronei
# [18:27] <TabAtkins_> zakim, mute fantasai
# [18:27] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
# [18:27] <nimbupani> szilles: you get less confusion if you wait and publish selectors 4 after the 3 rec goes out
# [18:27] <nimbupani> plinss: i agree, but I am not sure if its that big of a deal
# [18:28] <nimbupani> florian: i think we said the same thing at last f2f. as long as selectors 3 went to rec quickly then we have no issue, how long as we willing to wait.
# [18:28] <TabAtkins_> zakim, unmute fantasai
# [18:28] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
# [18:28] <nimbupani> plinss: did you see note about updating drafts for epub?
# [18:28] <nimbupani> fantasai: i dont know if fonts draft needs to be published or not.
# [18:29] <nimbupani> plinss: we will discuss those two over email and get some feedback from the editors (who are not here)
# [18:29] <nimbupani> TOPIC: regions
# [18:29] <nimbupani> plinss: display-inside and content property
# [18:29] <nimbupani> plinss: where are we on this
# [18:29] <nimbupani> alexmog: we had a conversation with vhardy we havenot agreed on a resolution.
# [18:30] <TabAtkins_> Darn, I've been muted this whole time.
# [18:30] <nimbupani> alexmog: my issue is using content it has a lot of meaning and behaviour in gneerated content as it interacts iwth model of before and after.
# [18:30] <nimbupani> alexmog: the use of that kind of content, might change the meaning of the element it is in and blows away before and after and we do not mean that content property
# [18:30] <nimbupani> alexmog: display property could be one way to do that or a separate from-flow property
# [18:31] <nimbupani> alexmog: if we had a display-inside property it would say display-inside: region and something else that would say where content comes from. It may be content property
# [18:31] <nimbupani> szilles: we have talked about having a region be a multicol, which is why i am not happy about display-inside: region. I like the principle of having a separate property that turns smthing into region and hten say what properties apply to region rather than putting of content in it turning on.
# [18:32] <nimbupani> alexmog: multicol will be display-inside if display-inside existed
# [18:32] <nimbupani> szilles: why not create a diff property with region yes/no with no as default
# [18:32] * Quits: Cathy ([email protected]) (Quit: SimpleIRC v2.0.3)
# [18:33] <nimbupani> vhardy: we could also go with the option of alexmog which is you have a flow-from property which would be what you are asking for and also say which region u are applying content form. the only tweak from your proposal alex is that before and after work on a region
# [18:33] <nimbupani> vhardy: we would be okay using flow-from proposal as it is close to what szilles is saying
# [18:34] <nimbupani> szilles: yes and no. it is using to say where text comes from to turn it into a region and I was trying to separate those two, but I am not strongly of any position. I can live with either
# [18:34] <nimbupani> alexmog: similar to float: positioned which we used to trigger exclusions and appears redundant as you also have to use wrap-type everytime you use that property.
# [18:34] <nimbupani> alexmog: so we ended up adopting adobe's solution, and here we use the same
# [18:34] <nimbupani> szilles: it is a valid point, and i can live either way
# [18:35] <nimbupani> fantasai: i think having two properties seems like too many levels of interaction.
# [18:35] <nimbupani> vhardy: i propose we try to resolve on flow-from and having before and after work with current pseudo selectors
# [18:36] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: what happens when you do flow-from form elements that is also a grid or flexbox
# [18:36] <nimbupani> vhardy: we have a resolution that sez you can only turn smthing into a region if it is a block container box
# [18:36] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: the point i wanted display-inside was to prevent unwanted interactions.
# [18:36] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: it is similar to what columns do.
# [18:37] <nimbupani> fantasai: still concerned about the interaction but have nothing concrete to say
# [18:37] <nimbupani> fantasai: interaction with display, and the content property as we are overriding with a different property
# [18:37] <nimbupani> alexmog: flow-from has a very diff meaning from content
# [18:37] <nimbupani> alexmog: content overrides WITHIN the element.
# [18:37] <bradk> What if we had content:flow-from() take the children of the named element, instead of the item itself?
# [18:37] <nimbupani> alexmog: flow-from overrides everything.
# [18:38] <nimbupani> alexmog: that is inside this element. it does not change the meaning of content. it just replaces everything within.
# [18:38] <nimbupani> fantasai: content property was intended to control what the contents are, and now we have another property that does essentially the same thing.
# [18:38] * hober agrees with fantasai
# [18:38] <nimbupani> fantasai: the most obvious thing that is changing is the contents of the element are not being displayed in favour of something else.
# [18:39] <nimbupani> fantasai: seems like a problem to me.
# [18:39] <nimbupani> vhardy: i think it is slightly different
# [18:39] <nimbupani> vhardy: u specify what content goes into the element
# [18:39] <nimbupani> vhardy: pull the content and this will be figured out atlyout.
# [18:39] * Quits: dsinger ([email protected]) (Quit: dsinger)
# [18:39] <nimbupani> alexmog: what content property does is replaces the content of the element
# [18:39] <nimbupani> alexmog: flow-from does is what the box is showing
# [18:39] <TabAtkins_> zakim, mute fantasai
# [18:39] <Zakim> fantasai should now be muted
# [18:40] <TabAtkins_> zakim, unmute fantasai
# [18:40] <Zakim> fantasai should no longer be muted
# [18:40] <hober> Zakim, who is making noise?
# [18:40] <nimbupani> plinss: i had a proposal in kyoto we use flow-from property and then use content property
# [18:40] * nimbupani plinss is breaking off
# [18:40] <Zakim> hober, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: nimbu (100%), plinss (9%), fantasai (24%), TabAtkins_ (14%)
# [18:40] <TabAtkins_> zakim, mute nimbu
# [18:40] <Zakim> nimbu should now be muted
# [18:41] <nimbupani> plinss: maybe we need another keyword to access actual content of the element rather than the flow content
# [18:41] <nimbupani> fantasai: the initial value of content property is normal, so normal computes to diff things depending on what the lement is
# [18:41] <bradk> content:flow-from() could replaces the content of the element with the contents of the flow.
# [18:41] <nimbupani> fantasai: it computes to list marker on a list marker, etc
# [18:42] <nimbupani> plinss: normal could compute to flow-from on elements that have a flow-from
# [18:42] <nimbupani> vhardy: i am not sure i understand what this means
# [18:42] <nimbupani> szilles: the normal behaviour of content is if you say flow-from it sez use it.
# [18:42] <nimbupani> plinss: if you say flow-from and content, content wins so you have a keyword within content.
# [18:43] <nimbupani> vhardy: i think flow-from should win
# [18:43] <nimbupani> s/vhardy/alexmog
# [18:43] <nimbupani> fantasai: i dont want to hold off progress on resolving other issues. i dont want to consider this resolved, but I amf ine with picking a solution and working with it.
# [18:43] <nimbupani> vhardy: what is the solution we are going for?
# [18:44] <nimbupani> alexmog: i completely disagree with that
# [18:44] * nimbupani agrees with alexmog
# [18:44] <nimbupani> szilles: if you want to be able to use ::before and ::after you want to fit it into the model
# [18:44] <nimbupani> alexmog: before and after does not feed into region flow
# [18:44] <nimbupani> szilles: vhardy said he would like to feed into the regions model
# [18:45] <nimbupani> alexmog: i dont know what it would mean to have content before that is float right and ahve that merge with multicol flow
# [18:45] <nimbupani> vhardy: the feedback I got was that we should specify the behavior of before and after when element is a region
# [18:45] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aadd
# [18:45] <nimbupani> alexmog: for before and after that would be special meaning do something different when they apply to a region
# [18:45] <nimbupani> szilles: it isnt completely different which is why people suggest we use it
# [18:46] <nimbupani> vhardy: can we go with doing a new iteration on ED using flow-from and trying to resolve what we can do with before/after
# [18:47] <nimbupani> vhardy: plinss you talked about using another keyword to define actual content. the proposal in kyoto, there is a separate proposal on adding a 'contents' keyword so you can combine the content that is already there.
# [18:47] <nimbupani> oops
# [18:47] <nimbupani> vhardy: plinss you talked about using another keyword to define actual content.
# [18:47] <nimbupani> plinss: the proposal in kyoto, there is a separate proposal on adding a 'contents' keyword so you can combine the content that is already there.
# [18:47] <nimbupani> plinss: i dont know if we need that, that was a separate proposal
# [18:47] <nimbupani> vhardy: for now we can live without that.
# [18:48] <nimbupani> szilles: i think it would be useful to put the issue under flow from that we need to clarify the interaction between the fow from and the contents property.
# [18:48] <nimbupani> vhardy: i was proposing to say smthing in the draft
# [18:48] * Joins: dsinger ([email protected])
# [18:48] <nimbupani> vhardy: we iterate on the draft and have a new ED proposed for the next F2F, and we can have an issue on the review of the new WD.
# [18:49] <Zakim> +[Apple]
# [18:49] <Zakim> -dsinger
# [18:49] <nimbupani> alexmog: lets keep it an issue.
# [18:49] * dsinger zakim, [apple] has dsinger
# [18:49] * Zakim +dsinger; got it
# [18:49] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: how do I create an issue >_>
# [18:49] * nimbupani or should i?
# [18:49] <nimbupani> vhardy: following the resolution about breaks to be container specific or region specific as decided on Seattle, I aligned it with multicol.
# [18:50] <nimbupani> vhardy: issues i raised on seattle meeting are not region specific they affect multicol pagination as one thing
# [18:50] <nimbupani> vhardy: how do breaks work in nested regions, multicol and when u start combining different kinds of break. it spans regions multicol and pagination
# [18:50] * alexmog have we resolved "use 'flow-from' property to enable regions, add an issue to the draft to define interaction with 'content' and 'contents'" ?
# [18:50] <nimbupani> vhardy: i dont think this is the right place to handle in the regions spec. what do we do about it? do we have a separate spec for breaks?
# [18:51] * florian alexmog: I think so
# [18:51] <nimbupani> alexmog: sorry I forgot how to add an issue >_>
# [18:51] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: use flow-from property to enable regions
# [18:52] <nimbupani> alexmog: my biggest concern with region break was that while behavior of page-break is undefined we would be creating a separate syntax for smthing that means something exactly same as page break or has same effect in same media
# [18:52] <nimbupani> plinss: we redefined breaking property in multicol
# [18:52] <nimbupani> vhardy: we already resolved to have a region break
# [18:53] <nimbupani> florian: when we want diff kind of break for diff kind of thing and we need to think about carefully.
# [18:53] <nimbupani> fantasai: we need a css3 pagination module?
# [18:53] <nimbupani> vhardy: maybe.
# [18:53] <nimbupani> alexmog: yeah that would be great to have one. we can ask for volunteers to write it.
# [18:53] <nimbupani> fantasai: there is some interaction with paged meda spec.
# [18:54] <nimbupani> fantasai: we might want to sync paged media spec to css 2.1 and push that out and ahve css3 pagination and then add whatever we need to add
# [18:54] <nimbupani> fantasai: the multicol spec defines aliases it was kinda expecting paged media to do that definition
# [18:54] <nimbupani> fantasai: maybe we can pull that into a separate module
# [18:54] * Quits: bradk ([email protected]) (Quit: Signing Off. Buh-bye. )
# [18:54] <nimbupani> vhardy: sgtm
# [18:55] * alexmog like
# [18:55] <nimbupani> plinss: who is going to work on the pagination module
# [18:55] <nimbupani> fantasai: i probably should do that
# [18:55] <nimbupani> fantasai: i hope its okay if you dont start until sept or oct
# [18:55] <nimbupani> fantasai: will be working more on pagination stuff this fall in either case.
# [18:55] <nimbupani> alexmog: MS and Adobe are most motivated people so maybe we and you should talk about it and figure out who should write the spec
# [18:55] <nimbupani> vhardy: yeah
# [18:56] * sylvaing sounds like a great thing to do during our honeymoon.
# [18:56] * sylvaing not
# [18:56] <nimbupani> fantasai: i can rip out various pieces we need and create a framework
# [18:56] * sylvaing likes the sound of spec pieces being ripped out
# [18:56] <nimbupani> whats the resolution?
# [18:58] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: CSS Regions has a region break like multicol and start on css3 pagination module and adobe and ms would sort out the editorship of that spec
# [18:58] <vhardy> # [18:58] <nimbupani> TOPIC: Conformance markup within the spec
# [18:58] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: can we talk about print backgrounds
# [18:58] <nimbupani> fantasai: can we talk about css 2. test suites
# [18:58] <nimbupani> plinss: whats the issue?
# [18:59] <nimbupani> fantasai: apparently ?? filed a bunch of issues but has not received a response about getting them fixed
# [18:59] <plinss> s/??/Gerard Talbot/
# [18:59] <nimbupani> fantasai: is ms planning to maintain those tests or find a new owner
# [18:59] <nimbupani> arronei: i can make changes whenever we feel its right
# [18:59] <nimbupani> plinss: no reason not to make updates.
# [19:00] <nimbupani> arronei: i can start working on it then
# [19:00] <nimbupani> plinss: TabAtkins is saying if we can get a resolution in printing bg last week
# [19:00] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: wiki page did not facilitate new discussion
# [19:00] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: 1. do nothing 2. add a hint that lets author provide extra info so UA can make a better choice
# [19:01] <nimbupani> florian: 1 and then come up with a UI that lets user switch based.
# [19:01] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: are u asking me to come up with a new browser UI for all browsers
# [19:02] <nimbupani> florian: seems like browsers have not made effort on print yet. Option1 is not silly and use ?? as heuristics it is not that silly
# [19:02] <nimbupani> plinss: there is no way we can get reasonable heuristics. there are print scenarios that do not have a direct user interaction
# [19:02] <nimbupani> ??? I like whats in 3
# [19:02] <Zakim> -arno
# [19:03] <nimbupani> alexmog: using !important
# [19:03] * Joins: bradk ([email protected])
# [19:03] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: !important is already doing wrong things and it is not just bgs.
# [19:03] <nimbupani> alexmog: printing bgs is unique situation where browser refuses to display smthing that was specified. it is a special feature
# [19:03] <vhardy> vhardy: need to drop out.
# [19:03] <Zakim> - +2aabb
# [19:04] * Quits: vhardy ([email protected]) (Quit: vhardy)
# [19:04] <Zakim> - +1.650.766.aadd
# [19:04] <nimbupani> alexmog: there is no other issue like that. we can create !print
# [19:04] <Zakim> + +1.650.766.aaee
# [19:04] <nimbupani> fantasai: we should ahve the principle that if someone has done the right thing, they should do one simple thing and it should just work
# [19:04] <nimbupani> fantasai: they should not reqrite stylesheet
# [19:05] <nimbupani> s/reqrite/rewrite
# [19:05] <nimbupani> fantasai: !important does not fit that bill
# [19:05] <nimbupani> alexmog: what is ur preferred answer TabAtkins
# [19:05] <nimbupani> florian: are we aligning with prop 7
# [19:05] <florian> http://wiki.csswg.org/ideas/print-backgrounds
# [19:06] <nimbupani> plinss: print media stylesheet is not sufficient
# [19:06] <florian> I was just asking elika's position, not everybody's
# [19:06] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: 2 to 6 are unusable
# [19:06] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: i am for option 7
# [19:06] <nimbupani> alexmog: is this for document or elements
# [19:06] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: either way
# [19:06] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: putting on doc is 7.1
# [19:07] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: individual pages is 7.2
# [19:07] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: any of them works.
# [19:07] <nimbupani> alexmog: it could be a meta tag
# [19:07] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
# [19:07] * sylvaing must go. Have a great September everyone!
# [19:07] <nimbupani> ??? print or anything like that sez we know better than you. the user needs to decide.
# [19:07] <nimbupani> s/????/arronei
# [19:08] * Ms2ger wishes sylvaing an enjoyable time away from CSS
# [19:08] <nimbupani> arronei: as vendors we decided not to print bgs by default. if we decide to print bgs by default, we need to engage the community and teach authors that they need to author good stylesheets for print
# [19:08] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we will not be changing browsers to print bgs by default
# [19:08] <nimbupani> arronei: now you need to provide a notification that you will be printing insane amount of stuff on these pages.
# [19:09] <nimbupani> ??? we need people to write good stylesheet
# [19:09] <nimbupani> alexmog: if we add an option to print bg we will never need user override with that.
# [19:09] <dsinger> printed backgrounds sometimes make the print unreadable
# [19:10] <nimbupani> alexmog: browser it is okay to print what the author has done that. the lack of the property means this is the old page and use it the old way.
# [19:10] <dsinger> making users miserable with the default is no way to educate site authors to make better stylesheets
# [19:10] <nimbupani> fantasai: an interesting heuristic to check would be if canvas has a bg that is not white then probably the page is not designed to print with ink
# [19:10] <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
# [19:10] * Quits: JohnJansen ([email protected]) (Quit: Page closed)
# [19:11] <nimbupani> plinss: i dont think the simple heuristic is good enough.
# [19:11] <oyvind> I'm sure plenty of pages have white/transparent html/body and put everything in some div
# [19:11] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: i have designed pages with no canvas bgs and elements that span the canvas having bg
# [19:11] <nimbupani> dsinger: bg by default would make usesrs miserable
# [19:11] * alexmog <meta http-equiv="X-UA-Print-Background" content="always"/>
# [19:11] <szilles> I support Alex's point: that adding a flag, probably on the document, that says honor the style, would allow migration to using suitable 'print' stylesheets
# [19:11] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: are we going to make a decision or are we going to continue be undefined
# [19:12] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: we are unable to make any decision on this whatsoever
# [19:12] <nimbupani> alexmog: we are closer to a decision
# [19:12] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: dont do it at all or do it with a property, there is no useful conversation out of this. I am not sure how to proceed.
# [19:12] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: i am not seeing any progress towards a conclusion
# [19:13] <nimbupani> alexmog: u have proposal on the wiki
# [19:13] <nimbupani> alexmog: we can have things that are not in css but apply to whole doc
# [19:13] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: if we decide there is a mechanism for this, that would be sufficient for my needs.
# [19:13] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: can we assume 7 covers all variations on this idea?
# [19:14] <nimbupani> plinss: i propose we elect to do something
# [19:14] <nimbupani> plinss: i think we shold move forward anyway.
# [19:14] <nimbupani> plinss: tab should work on a concrete proposal get some implementation experience if folks hate it we can revisit
# [19:14] <szilles> +1 for Peter's proposal
# [19:14] <nimbupani> TabAtkins: cool for me
# [19:14] * Quits: sylvaing ([email protected]) (Quit: sylvaing)
# [19:14] <nimbupani> RESOLVED: TabAtkins to create a proposal for print bgs
# [19:15] <Zakim> - +1.650.766.aaee
# [19:15] <Zakim> -fantasai
# [19:15] <Zakim> -[Apple]
# [19:15] <Zakim> -TabAtkins_
# [19:15] <Zakim> -arronei
# [19:15] <Zakim> -SteveZ
# [19:15] <Zakim> -plinss
# [19:15] <Zakim> -nimbu
# [19:15] <Zakim> -hober
# [19:15] <Zakim> -stearns
# [19:15] <Zakim> -florian
# [19:15] <Zakim> -alexmog
# [19:15] <Zakim> -??P15
# [19:15] <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
# [19:15] <Zakim> Attendees were florian, plinss, nimbu, stearns, hober, +1.858.354.aaaa, dsinger, +2aabb, fantasai, JohnJansen, TabAtkins_, SteveZ, alexmog, +2aacc, arno, [Microsoft], arronei,
# [19:15] <Zakim> ... +1.650.766.aadd, +1.650.766.aaee
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# Session Close: Thu Aug 25 00:00:00 2011

The end :)