Assuming things happen exactly as the current LCDM seems to predict - the universe becomes asymptotically de-Sitter forever and fosters an environment where infinitely many Boltzmann Brains could proliferate, why would that be a problem? It seems to be implied that we would then be overwhelmingly likely to be Boltzmann Brains, but why exactly? Couldn't we just be Ordinary Observers long before this time of Boltzmann domination occurs?
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2Lets just say the earth lasts forever, and starting from a million years into the future all days must be rainy days. That must mean on average a day is rainy. Does that mean today must be a rainy day, because on average all days are rainy?Penguin7270– Penguin72702025-11-07 10:02:11 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 10:02
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okay maybe that example was actually a strawman.Penguin7270– Penguin72702025-11-07 10:03:02 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 10:03
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2there is no reason to speculate over things that haven't been proven to be possible in the first place. Boltzmann Brains are classed as extreme thermodynamic or quantum fluctuations according to some of our current models, but there is no evidence that these fluctuations can actually occur, especially since they are entropy decreasing. Practically, there is no way to differentiate between or test the difference between a 0 probability event and an infinitesimally probable one.Syed– Syed2025-11-07 10:43:43 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 10:43
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Isn't this just another flavor of the simulation hypothesis? We don't know, we can't know, it makes no practical difference whatsoever that we can detect and to me it seems an unlikely theory. Which is my attitude towards deities too.keshlam– keshlam2025-11-07 15:35:00 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 15:35
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1A summary of responses to this idea is already available at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… ... If you want to spend time trying to resolve the untestable, that's your choice.keshlam– keshlam2025-11-07 20:31:42 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 20:31
5 Answers
Simply because the number of Boltzmann brains to ever exist (infinite because they keep spawning eternally in a given large enough finite volume) would dwarf the number of "ordinary observers" (finite for a given finite volume, because they eventually stop spawning).
And since you can't really tell whether you are a Boltzman brain or "ordinary", it is an unobservable, a random variable. Which overwhelmingly favors you being a Boltzmann brain.
According to the thought experiment of course, please don't believe you are one. The struggle is how do you fix the theory to get rid of Boltzmann brains.
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Your take is related to my own. I claim the result of Boltzmann brains shows something is broken in the heart of quantum mechanics.Joshua– Joshua2025-11-07 19:22:26 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 19:22
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I don't think Quantum Mechanics requires Boltzmann Brains, or even makes them probable; I would take any calculation that claims so as highly speculative. Whether there's something broken... well, we're still trying to reconcile QM with gravity, so there's at least some detail we haven't found yet.keshlam– keshlam2025-11-07 20:29:27 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 20:29
The idea of an infinite number of Boltzmann brains is not intended to be taken seriously, but simply to illustrate improbabilities. The logic that suggests infinitely many brains also suggests infinitely many of everything else you care to mention. You might consider, for example, that infinitely many extermination machines- programmed to detect and destroy brains- might spontaneously appear first, in which case the brain problem will be neatly nipped in the bud.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_(novel_series) ?keshlam– keshlam2025-11-07 20:15:25 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 20:15
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As opposed to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brainkeshlam– keshlam2025-11-07 20:30:12 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 20:30
I think the argument that we are probably Boltzmann brains is completely invalid.
Assume you are a Boltzmann brain
The above implies that everything that you know, including the laws of physics, could be lies. The laws in your hallucination probably do not correspond to the laws in the outside universe
But you used the laws of physics in the first place to arrive at the possibility of Boltzmann brains.
Therefore, the assumption that you are a Boltzmann brain is self defeating.
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2Not only is the argument self-defeating in that way, it makes the unjustified assumption that it is possible for software to have mental states.David Gudeman– David Gudeman2025-11-07 16:00:49 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 16:00
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1@DavidGudeman: To a physicalist that does not seem an unreasonable assumption, given that wetware demonstrably can have mental states. Just a question of sufficient complexity and the right architecture. Admittedly, some people react strongly to that idea.keshlam– keshlam2025-11-07 17:07:35 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 17:07
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@keshlam it's a completely unjustified assumption even for a materialist. They have no idea where first person experience comes from. Assuming it can arise in software is wild speculation.David Gudeman– David Gudeman2025-11-07 17:25:25 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 17:25
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3We agree that we disagree. Assuming it can arise anywhere else is wilder speculation. Give me an equally coherent/analysable/researchable alternative and I'd be glad to consider it; most non-physical theories I've seen boil down to "we don't know either, but we don't like your answer. It's a Mystery " I would love to see an alternative that actually led somewhere. ... But we're drifting off topic, and we've (unproductively) covered this material in past questions.keshlam– keshlam2025-11-07 17:37:56 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 17:37
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1The boltzmann brain hypothesis is the ultimate version of appearance of age hypothesis. The brain comes preloaded with a memory of learning things that were never learned.Joshua– Joshua2025-11-07 19:08:46 +00:00Commented Nov 7 at 19:08
Regarding the statistical question as opposed to the general plausibility or cognitive stability of such objects as Boltzmann brains:
Statistical arguments that start with the assumption that we are in a randomly selected index beg the question unless we have a strong argument that some person or process actually did select randomly. It's one of the all time most attractive statistical fallacies because it seems to let us extract useful information from insufficient data. But all the information we seem to be able to extract is the information that we put in ourselves by making the assumption.
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1"Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'keshlam– keshlam2025-11-08 05:16:17 +00:00Commented Nov 8 at 5:16
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So it is completely possible that we are "OO"s with a theory that correctly predicts infinite BB creation, in a future timespan?Penguin7270– Penguin72702025-11-09 07:41:36 +00:00Commented Nov 9 at 7:41
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@Penguin7270 You have to be careful how you say it, as infinities always blow up statistics. An infinite number of the infinite BBs with identical data to ours randomly concluded that they were potatoes. So even if we're randomly selected among the identically data driven BBs, our probability of being OOs is just us/(BB.us - BB.potatos) = finite/(infinity-infinity) = undefinedg s– g s2025-11-09 15:24:36 +00:00Commented 2 days ago
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@Penguin7270 If instead we suppose that there vast finite future BBs over some vast finite time so that we can safely neglect the vanishingly small fraction of them that think they're potatoes, we still run immediately into an unsolvable reference class problem: without data, how do we promote from "we are us" to "we are members of class X" in order to conclude that "we are most likely in the most frequent cadre of X" when we could with identical data promote to "we are members of class Y" and obtain a different probability?g s– g s2025-11-09 15:32:16 +00:00Commented 2 days ago
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If we can't get any data about which reference class to pick, we can't decide how to choose between reference classes; and if we can't pick a reference class, we can't make any statement of likelihood whatsoever.g s– g s2025-11-09 15:54:27 +00:00Commented 2 days ago
I'm going to take the premise, "There's a major chance that we're Boltzmann objects," at face value in the following, while throwing in a horrible solution.
But first, then: by "major chance" I mean a probability greater than 50%, however little or large the difference over 50% is. An interchangeable phrase would be "majority probability."
Now, per unitarity, it's to be said that if there's e.g. a 75% chance of something being the case, there's a 25% chance of something else being the case instead. But why, in physical reality, can't there be a 75% chance of A and a 75% chance of ~A? Might we not adopt a paraconsistent logic of probability and advance such a claim? Or suppose we deny unitarity. The solution offered, as such, to the fear of being a Boltzmann object, is: yes, there's an almost 100% chance that we're such objects, but there's also an almost 100% chance that we're not (the basis for the alternative being e.g. epistemic justification, a default justified belief that we're not Boltzmann objects).
Some papers on paraconsistent probability theory (not necessarily directly relevant to the above):
Goertzel[21], "Paraconsistent Foundations for Quantum Probability"
Carnielli and Testa[20], "Paraconsistent Logics for Knowledge Representation and Reasoning: advances and perspectives"
Brandom and Rescher's book on inconsistency logic, viz. this passage:
To accept the prospect of P and ~P conjointly is to give weight to the {P} = + + case in a distribution of probabilities across the whole gamut of alternative cases. And so if a probability distribution is to divide a total weight of 1 across all the standard cases (with only non-negative values), then, over-all, we are driven to a non-standard probability theory with positive probabilities for some non-standard cases—and so with certain outcomes taking on a probability greater than 1 (and conceivably also assigning some outcomes a negative probability value—certainly so if the over-all sum is to remain at 1). [bold emphasis added]
The seeming possibility of more-than-unitary probabilities tout court seems mostly to come up, or even only come up ever, in the analysis of quantum physics. But stipulative definitions aside, is there any "proof" that probability theories "ought to" be unitarity-compliant?
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[is there any "proof" that probability theories "ought to" be unitarity-compliant] The grounding problem is the grounding problem and we aren't going to solve it today, but that doesn't mean you give up and decide that you can't distinguish a cat from a carrot. You just suck it up and pick a practical a priori commitment that allows you to not put cats in salads...g s– g s2025-11-08 20:14:09 +00:00Commented Nov 8 at 20:14
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@gs firstly, I wouldn't necessarily be so confident about even that (yesterday or the day before, I came up with a compelling argument against distinguishing e.g. pretzels from non-pretzels), though I'd be more confident in my ability to "know a cat from a carrot on the basis of shape/color/motion properties" than my ability to "know a probability from a non-probability theory on the basis of unitarity properties."Kristian Berry– Kristian Berry2025-11-08 20:22:02 +00:00Commented Nov 8 at 20:22
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Please don't put cats on salads, anyway. It's mean.g s– g s2025-11-08 20:23:45 +00:00Commented Nov 8 at 20:23
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@gs well, I don't eat meat (unless I'm broke and I have to go to work and can't be fainting from hunger, and some free food with meat in it is offered...). So we're safe on that count ;)Kristian Berry– Kristian Berry2025-11-08 20:25:17 +00:00Commented Nov 8 at 20:25
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1Well, the cat is safe at least. You, on the other hand, can't be sure that the carrots weren't cats this whole time, and are thus consumed with guilt for poor Fluffy. ;)g s– g s2025-11-08 20:27:03 +00:00Commented Nov 8 at 20:27