<Matt_King> regret+ Jon Evan Bryan Curt
<scribe> scribe: MarkMccarthy
<carmacleod> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/APG-1.2-Release-1-Plan
Matt_King: we're making good
progress on combobox
... carousel, we're waiting on some little fixes but have some
time
... gudiance sections, I think we're pretty close. we'll look
at aria-level today
... jemma is starting work in the other bugs category, so we're
looking to be set up well. james, timing updates?
jamesn: no, no updates
Matt_King: we'll revisit that next week then; wondering when we want to focus more on 1.3
jamesn: joanie was going through a lot of 1.2 issues. things that need to be done for WD and I don't think we have lots of progress yet
Matt_King: my other question -
jon had suggested that the table in section 8.1 have 6
columns
... 3 columns for required yes/no, 3 for default values for
min, max, and now; and then moving this table to the intro
section'
<carmacleod> +1
Matt_King: first question: do others agree that making the table more comprehensive AND moving it earlier is good?
MarkMccarthy: +1
Matt_King: right - all the
requirements are in one easy to see place, and in a tabular
format
... are there any instances in these 6 roles where valuenow has
any default?
carmacleod: sort of. spinbutton says it's a supported attr; the default value for valuenow is no current value
Matt_King: so null, essentially
carmacleod: so it's not required, but there's no value
Matt_King: which roles require valuenow?
carmacleod: all the others
<siri> *where are you seeing it?
Matt_King: meter requires it,
progressbar, scrollbar, slider ... okay. so this is a good
argument for it then
... they're all required, so there's no default, but there's
fallback. should we label the column fallback?
carmacleod: one of the reasons we put that in was to tell authors that they were required
<siri> * How to put comments in IRC?
carmacleod: the section it's in is geared toward user agents, not so much authors
<carmacleod> https://w3c.github.io/aria/#spinbutton
Matt_King: so, would it be better
to have a table that has a default value column, or just leave
it out?
... maybe it's better to tell people there's no default
carmacleod: good idea!
MarkMccarthy: +1
Matt_King: carmacleod, would you be able to propose the changes to the table itself and change it the way jon described?
carmacleod: yes i can pose the changes, do a PR right?
Matt_King: it's a branch, so..
carmacleod: oh just push it, sure
Matt_King: yeah, the way we
discussed. thanks!
... looks like 8.1 might be skinny if we change it, but then,
the others are too. so that's alright
... i wonder if we should potentially combine sections 8.1 and
8.2? or are the headings better?
carmacleod: might make sense to - it'll match the table
Matt_King: oh, well that's also another way to do this. one section with the text and another with the table
carmacleod: let's see how it looks first
MarkMccarthy: +1
Matt_King: reasonable. okay.
Matt_King: only gonna take a
quick look
... there's some things I might need some review help
carmacleod: 1336, 1335, 1334, and
1017 seem related; 1017 is the combobox date picker
... so it looks like there's 3
... there -are- 6, but the others aren't strictly related
Matt_King: darn - need someone to visually look at 1336. that expanded the scope a little
<carmacleod> aria-level
Matt_King: people were
questioning whether or not to use this with list item <carmacleod>
https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1109.html#aria-level_listitem_role Matt_King: i think I want to have
aaron leventhal read this, esp. the tree one carmacleod: that's a good
idea jamesn: yep Matt_King: i think there was a
different approach to doing tree jamesn: i've never seen a good
use of it on list item Matt_King: don't want to suggest
anything to the world any of us think is awful jamesn: i don't even understand
the example. you can't just -do- that carmacleod: in the PR comments,
jon said: I think the section 8.2 should also talk more
specially when only part of a longer list is rendered due to
size of the list, screen real estate or bandwith issues, these
examples would also include aria-posinset and aria-setsize.
This is an example is a list of potential search
categories: Matt_King: but even if you had a
list that was only partially rendered; if I got to it and it
said nesting level 5 with -nothing- around it, then what does
that even mean? jamesn: so we'd need an aria
property that this element is partially rendered, and the
cursor needs to sync up with the DOM to fetch the right
content. we don't have anything like that Matt_King: a lot of times when
something is visually partially rendered, it's in the DOM
-- jamesn: no, not always Matt_King: presumably, you could
get to previous and next, right? jamesn: not...necessarily carmacleod: if you're in a
virtual buffer, you won't hit that Matt_King: so then, we're talking
about feeds technically jamesn: yes, but they're not
feeds. what we need is a more generic way of doing feeds Matt_King: when it comes to APG
guidance that is correct -today-, is using aria-level valuable
on a list item? jamesn: yes... potentially. if
i'm going through lists with other navigable content. if the
thing at level one gets scrolled out of the DOM and only level
2 things are there, it's better to keep it level 2 than reset
it to level 1 Matt_King: i can agree it's
theoretically better, so it's better authors do the best they
can - even if there's no way to to make that information
consumable in a very useful way jamesn: i agree it's not perfect.
but it's better than those things changing due to content
disappearing Matt_King: we don't have an
example of this in the APG. is there an example of something in
the wild we could mimic? MarkMccarthy: something like
facebook's news feed? or reddit? Matt_King: well facebook uses the
right elements for the news feed etc., or amazon's menu bars,
etc. jamesn: the ones you see a lot
are grids, where rows scroll in and out Matt_King: well that's a widget,
and we can kind of handle that jamesn: yes, if someone is using
table commands in their screen reader Matt_King: with NVDA and VO, as
long as there's focusable elements in the table cells, then
they'll go through with no problem jamesn: so that's something
screen readers are doing based on inference, or trying to fix
behavior Matt_King: not quite, it's the
grid responding to focus; when the last item is focused the
grid loads more. NVDA and VO drag focus with the reading
cursor jamesn: either way, there's lists
where this happens, but i'm having trouble of thinking
examples Matt_King: for this to work in a
list, you'd need a massive list where the beginning is
truncated jamesn: we do that, with trees as
well carmacleod: like a filesystem Matt_King: dropbox. but they load
a new page for each folder jamesn: our tree view does
this Matt_King: jamesn, do you have
any direct suggestions on how to make the list items section of
aria-level better or right? jamesn: yeah. something with aria
level 1 and aria level 2 with no UL between them - not sure why
we have both levels with nothing between Matt_King: so, it's clear we need
more work here. i don't actually know what to change.
suggestions welcome jamesn: i know the idea is to
cover all scenarios, but if -we're- struggling to think of use
cases, i wonder if we should even include it? carmacleod: i thought that
too Matt_King: me too. not having it
at all seems a problem, but... jamesn: we could acknowledge it.
something like "it's allowed, please submit one, but we can't
think of one or might deprecate in the future" FOR EXAMPLE carmacleod: [chuckles] github: Summary of Action
Items
... do these examples in the list item section make sense
without context; are they useful?
... like making a treegrid out of a table, and there -isn't- a
way for the browser to calculate the values
... i'm not 100% sure how the browser calculates that. we might
be able to come up with better examples for row and tree. i'm
really murky on the list item one
... we know it's supported etc., but is the better guidance not
to inclulde it because it doesn't give value
... i'd hate to see someone do what's in the example
... specifically, JAWS says something like 'nested list of 5
items' or something like that
... tables tell you the nesting level, not sure with ilsts. but
i'm imagining hearing "nested list" and not seeing anything
else around it. i'd be really confused
... this happens all the time
... maybe something like google docs where you only get a small
amount rendered in the DOM at one time
... i wonder if box or another one does something like that.
uses a list but shows the whole treeSummary of
Resolutions
[End of minutes]
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Present: Matt_King MarkMccarthy carmacleod siri JamesNurthen
Regrets: Jemma Jon Evan Bryan Curt
Found Scribe: MarkMccarthy
Inferring ScribeNick: MarkMccarthy
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