Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Grace Coolidge/archive1

Grace Coolidge

Grace Coolidge (edit | talk | history | links | logs)

Featured article candidates/Grace Coolidge/archive1

Nominator(s): Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 02:14, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Grace Coolidge was first lady of the United States during the Roaring Twenties, but she spent her entire life working with deaf children. She was incredibly personable and beloved by the public. She was not allowed to dance in public, bob her hair, ride a horse, or fly in an airplane. Most importantly, she had a pet raccoon.

This is the fifth U.S. first lady article I'm submitting as a featured article candidate, a project which I began for WP:Women in Green. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 02:14, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:Grace_Coolidge_1924.jpg: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Mrs._Calvin_Coolidge_LCCN2014710795_(cropped).jpg, File:Mrs._Coolidge,_4-18-27_LCCN2016842988_(cropped).jpg, File:Pres._%26_Mrs._Coolidge_acknowledge_greetings_from_crowd,_(11-5-24)_LOC_npcc.12517_(cropped).jpg, File:The_Coolidges_start_to_move-Mrs._Coolidge_snaped_(sic)_at_the_"Temporary_White_House"_when_she_appeared_carrying_a_few_of_her_choice_possessions_LCCN2002719325_(cropped).jpg, File:Grace_Coolidge_Official_portrait.jpg

File:Grace_Cooldige_Signature.svg: traced from what?

File:Mrs._Coolidge_LOC_npcc.03799_(cropped).jpg: when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:31, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from MSincccc

Placeholder. MSincccc (talk) 09:49, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
- Could Democrat be linked here?
  - Done.
Education
- Could tobogganing be linked here?
  - Done.
Entering political life
- Grace and Calvin moved into a suite on the top floor of the Willard Hotel. Could "she" be used here in place of "Grace" since the latter has been mentioned in the very previous sentence?
  - Done.
Renovation and vacation
- While changes to the design of architect Charles Follen McKim... Could "the architect" be used here to avoid a false title?
  - Not recommended by the Manual of Style.
Later life and death
- They also had a new house constructed by Calvin's childhood home where they could spend their summers. Could "by" be replaced with "near" to make the sentence grammatically correct?
  - You mean the childhood home didn't pick up a hammer and construct a new house? Done.
- She took her husband's place as trustee of Mercersburg Academy, Clarke School, and another local school. Could Mercersburg Academy be linked here?
  - Already linked higher up in the article, unless there's a reason why it might be linked here as well.
Legacy
- Her biographer Ishbel Ross... Could Ross be linked here rather than later in the same section, as it has been done presently?
  - Done.
MSincccc (talk) 13:32, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Replied to everything above. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 20:55, 11 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's all from me. Support. MSincccc (talk) 08:32, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Noleander

Throughout the article she is refered to by her first name, "Grace". That gives the impression that WP is condescending and misogynistic. It is hard to imagine this article on Coolidge appearing on the Main Page of WP, and referring to a grown woman by her first name. Other first lady articles Frances Cleveland, Helen Herron Taft, Barbara Bush, Rosalynn Carter, Eleanor Roosevelt, all use the last name to refer to first lady. One that uses first name is Florence Harding (and Edith Wilson to some extent). Granted, Grace Coolidge was, perhaps, less impactful on American history than other first ladies? Not as much gravitas or public power? But using the first name is subtly telling readers: "Since this first lady did not have as much public impact as other first ladies, we are going to demean her by using her first name in this article." Looking outside first ladies: Articles Oprah Winfrey & Shirley Temple use their last name, even tho they commonly referred to by her first name in sources. And Marie Curie article uses her last name, tho her husband is equally famous (that is, readers of the article know that the word "Curie" by itself refers to the subject of the article). Do sources about Coolidge use her first name exclusively? Even if the sources use the first name, that is not binding on the WP article, is it? E.g. when sources from 1900 use terms such as "colored" or negro", WP articles replace the source's terminology (when not inside a quote) with the modern (2025) conventions; shouldn't the same apply to first vs last name? Does WP MOS have a policy on first vs last name?
- MOS:SAMESURNAME. There are four people constantly mentioned throughout the article with the surname "Coolidge", so they are all described by their first names, as is done with the FA Edith Roosevelt. I consider clarity a higher priority, and in hindsight I wish I had used the same formatting when writing the Cleveland, Taft, and Bush articles.
Bullet list? Since 1982, Siena College Research Institute has periodically conducted surveys asking historians to assess American first ladies, where Edith ranked:[218] 17th of 42 in 1982 19th of 37 in 1993 17th of 38 in 2003 17th of 38 in 2008 21st of 39 in 2014[219] 25th of 40 in 2020[220] I was under the impression that bullets were strongly discouraged by the WP MOS. It seems that this data could be presented without bullets, with no loss to the reader. If you feel a list is necessary, consider using a table, rather than bullets.
- I'm not aware of any MOS discouraging bulleted lists when there's a list of info, but I went ahead and collapsed it into prose.
Ambiguity: While she was not aware that he made the announcement, she never said to others whether she was aware of his intention. I'm not sure what "she never said to others whether she was aware of his intention." means. Does it mean she did not tell her friends whether or not husband had notified her of his intention to not run? Or she did not tell her friends whether or not husband had given her advance notice of the public statement? Can you reword to clarify? Also: Why is it important whether or not she told "others" about it? And who are the "others". Maybe delete that phrase.
- Rewrote.
Short sentence: While she was not aware that he made the announcement, she never said to others whether she was aware of his intention. She was glad to hear the news. Latter sentence seems a bit too terse; consider combining While she was not aware that he made the announcement, she was glad to hear the news. or something like that.
- Done.
Wording: For her housekeeper, Grace fired Elizabeth Jaffray and replaced her with Ellen A. Riley. The phrase "For her housekeeper, Grace fired Elizabeth Jaffray and ... " doesn't seem very encyclopedic. I gather "for" here means "regarding", correct? Consider "Grace fired her housekeeper Elizabeth Jaffray and ...
- Done.
Wording: Though she was personally unhappy with the effects of prohibition, her sense of legal obligation kept her from serving alcohol at the White House. Phrase "kept her from serving alcohol" is a bit idiomatic and may confuse some readers when English is not their first language. Consider Though she was personally unhappy with the effects of prohibition, she complied with the law and refrained from serving alcohol at the White House.. Also, can you add more specificity to "Though she was personally unhappy with the effects of prohibition" ? Does the source say why she was unhappy? Did it make social events more dull? or guests were annoyed?
- Done and done.
Specify age: The Coolidges were devastated by the sudden death of their son Calvin Jr. on July 7, 1924. Providing the age of the son in this sentence will paint a fuller picture for readers. I realize that readers can compute the age by searching up in the article, but why make readers do the work?
- Done.
Clarify wording: Years after leaving the White House, she determined that there was no point where she had genuinely embarrassed herself. It is not entirely clear what that means ... what is the source trying to say? Does it mean that she did do some unethical things, but they were never detected & published? Or does it mean she assessed her behavior, and concluded that she lived a virtuous life? In either case, reword to more clearly convey to readers what the source is saying.
- Done.
Simplify: Then in the early 1880s, her father built them a new home ... consider removing the word "Then" ... in this context (reciting a portion of her life) the reader will assume that every event chronologically follows prior events.
- Removed.
Wording Rather than teaching sign language, Grace followed the school's philosophy of instructing the students in lip reading... Kinda suggests that she made a deliberate choice. Consider shifting emphasis from teacher to the school: The school's policy was to teach lip reading, rather than sign language. or something like that.
- Done.
Link? ...the school's steward Robert Weir, to introduce them.... Many readers will not know what job "steward" is. (I consider myself well read, but I don't know ... I presume it is similar to airline stewardess? But it could be related to car racing steward? or the Steward of Gondor?) Can you add a link to WP article that defines the job? Or, if no WP article exists, maybe replace "steward" with a synonym that will be more recognizable to readers.
- I'm not sure what specifically it means either, but this was apparently his title.
Explain She often saved face for her husband and his unusual social behavior. What do the sources say was "unusual"? Can you use a word that gives more specifics to the user? E.g. "brusque" "aloof" "curt" "rude" ... etc (I'm not suggesting those are accurate for the husband, just giving examples of words that give more info to the reader).
- "Curt" sounds right, added.
That's all for now. Noleander (talk) 17:13, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- Noleander I've responded to everything above. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 21:34, 16 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  @Thebiguglyalien: The article is looking great! The prose is fine quality, and style looks good.
  
  Regarding the question of referring to her by her first name vs last (or first & last): Thanks for identifying the MOS guideline. The relevant part says "When referring to the person who is the subject of the article, use just the surname unless the reference is part of a list of family members or if use of the surname alone will be confusing." That is not a black-and-white rule, correct? It gives the editor some latitude: a judgement call is required.
  
  For the Grace Coolidge article, there are two choices: (a) Use first names for everyone (as the article stands today); or (b) Use last name for subject, first name for others. The "First names for everyone" approach is less confusing, but could be perceived as misogynistic (condescending, infantilization). The "Use last name for subject" approach is a more confusing, but treats the woman with respect. So a balancing test needs to be performed by the editor, weighing various factors, no?
  
  Question for nominator (I ask in the spirit of consensus-building): If the article were to use the "Use last name for subject" approach, would you feel that approach causes the article to fall below FA requirements? Noleander (talk) 15:45, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  I believe it would meet the FA requirements either way. Personally, I think it would be a disservice to the readers to make their reading experience more difficult just because the subject of an article happens to have a significantly more famous spouse and happens to be a woman. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 18:22, 20 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jon698

I added a missing . to Jr. in one section and a comma in another.
For the sentence "Lois Irene Marshall and Emily Clark Stearns, the previous second lady and the wife of Calvin's political ally, respectively, both became mentors for Grace as she acclimated to her new role." could a mention of Thomas R. Marshall be included? Such as "the second lady to Calvin's predecessor Thomas R. Marshall".
- This sentence is already pretty clunky, and I don't want to add to it unless I were to rewrite the whole thing.
Could "Her attendance at the dedication of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier left an impression on her in 1921." be expanded upon in any way? It seems kinda of vague as to what the impression was. It is fine if no more details are available.
- Checked the source, it does not.
Could "period pieces" be linked to Antique furniture?
- Done.
Can "in 1939 she began raising funds for child refugees from Germany" be restrucuted to "began raising funds for child refugees from Germany in 1939"?
- Done.
Could her influence on fashion be added to the lede?
- Added one sentence.

Jon698 (talk) 06:35, 21 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Jon698, posted my replies above. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 🛸 20:38, 22 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Thebiguglyalien: Those are all of the comments that I have and you answered them in a fulfilling way. Jon698 (talk) 08:13, 24 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]